Privacy policy?

xris
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by xris »

vfs wrote:Read the URL below, I'm pretty sure SD is incorporated in a district that is overseen by the 9th Circuit Court.
I don't think I can specifically address this without upsetting our lawyers (and trust me, this whole "can't talk about it" thing is driving us just as nuts as some of the clauses are bothering you). However, you might want to take a look through the Subscriber Agreement again.

xris
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by xris »

wyatt wrote:My issue is not with the use of my IP for the things mentioned above but with retaining it past it's usefulness for those things.
Again, just because a document gives someone the right to do something (say, to protect against a lawsuit in case it happens unknowingly), doesn't mean that said party will actually do that thing.

P.S. My boss (at my real job) happens to enjoy occasionally looking at 4-year-old webserver stats to compare them with current trends (stats which occasionally include specific IPs of high traffic users, presumably intended to point out search engine spiders, but the software isn't smart enough to differentiate between a spider and an enthusiastic customer).

vfs
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by vfs »

xris wrote:I don't think I can specifically address this without upsetting our lawyers (and trust me, this whole "can't talk about it" thing is driving us just as nuts as some of the clauses are bothering you). However, you might want to take a look through the Subscriber Agreement again.
Are you referring to paragraph 13 of the Subscription Agreement? Yes, it does have some moronic language in it, but it's still not as stupid as what's in the Privacy Policy.

I'm not a lawyer, but I did graduate from high school (and got at least a "C" in English), so that means I actually know how to read. Since the Subscription Agreement says that it incorporates the (unenforceable and illegal, in my opinion) Privacy Policy, I'd say that the following statement in paragraph 13 voids the Privacy Policy:
If any provision of this Agreement is found for any reason to be unlawful, void, or unenforceable, then that provision will be deemed severable from this Agreement
You might want to run this by your legal team. I'm sure it would be a lot easier for them to press the delete key a few times than it would be to come across someone who has the money and time to take you to court over this. I'm not implying that I'm such a person, but I'd like to think that the wise businessman wouldn't be interested in unnecessary liability.

vorear
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by vorear »

I will agree to the current policy with objection. I don't believe 7 days is long enough and I don't agree that the option should be cancelation. And I understand the inability of board members to discuss the policy even to explain the policy, but I think they should encourage this discussion so we can provide feedback that may be incorporated into the next edition of the privacy policy. I am also not a lawyer (thank ghod) but I have worked for a few privacy rights groups (in a technical capactiy) so I know there are resources to assist well-meaning organizations to craft an intellegent and respectful privacy and other policies.

And just because a poorly worded agreement will not be abused by you, doesn't mean you will always be in charge of this organization.

xris
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by xris »

We do not cancel accounts after 7 days if you don't accept the policy. There's a huge difference between deactivated (and yes, I've gone back and even changed this to "temporarily deactivated" just so people are extra-clear) and canceled. As a business, we can't even proceed with something important like paying our taxes until we have permission from our members to share even the most basic information (e.g. that we have any members at all) with parties we might do business with (e.g. our accountants). We figured that 7 days would be enough time for people to read things over and make their decision, and that on the off chance they didn't see the email we sent out, turning off their ability to download data might encourage them to log in and see why that happened (which should now hopefully include the nice surprise of having 3 months added onto the end of their membership than they originally thought they were paying for).

If people still don't log into their accounts after another week or two (and probably a couple more reminder emails), we might have to start "really canceling" accounts and issuing refunds, but we hope that it won't come to that -- we don't want to upset any members -- and we haven't really even discussed what we would have to do if all of our active members don't acknowledge the Privacy Policy in one way or another.

vfs
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by vfs »

xris wrote:after another week or two (and probably a couple more reminder emails), we might have to start "really canceling" accounts
Um, not to sound like a jerk, but if you start noticing that people don't agree to the privacy policy, wouldn't that indicate that your users don't like the policy, and that you should change it?

Personally, I object to the whole "we'll just go ahead and change the policy without telling you" crap. That's complete bullshit, and a federal court agrees with me. This might come as a surprise, but I actually want the TV industry to know what I'm watching - I feel it's a good way of displaying that the shows I like are being watched so the networks will continue to produce them. How else would anyone know who watches what unless you're a Nielsen household? (yes, I know it's possible for satellite and digital cable companies to know what channels you're watching).

If I had my way, I'd have MythTV include an optional stat-reporting module so I could let the networks know what shows I like (by watching/recording them) and what shows I don't like (because I'm not watching/recording them). I'm not saying they need a copy of my drivers license attached to each stat I generate, but I don't mind letting people know that their shows are being watched.

Well, I guess not the porn. ;)

whurlston
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by whurlston »

vfs wrote:Um, not to sound like a jerk, but if you start noticing that people don't agree to the privacy policy, wouldn't that indicate that your users don't like the policy, and that you should change it?
If more people agree to it than not, wouldn't that indicate that the majority is fine with it and there is no need to change it?

rmeden
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by rmeden »

We realize some folks have issues with the privacy policy, and I hope the issues are addressed with a future one.

In order to go live before 9/1, we needed to start with a very hasty policy. That policy was so restrictive we can't even file our quarterly taxes (which are coming up!). I believe we said the policy was temporary, would be replaced and would need to be approved. We're have to be forceful so we can move forward.

We plan on notifying members of future policy changes (I think you can opt out of that, I'm not sure, other folks handle it), but under the current policy those will not need an approval step.

I'm sorry we have to be a "jerk" about it.. really I am.. but we're doing the best we can.

Now I'm going to get back to work on Google checkout.

Robert

xris
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by xris »

vfs wrote:
xris wrote:Personally, I object to the whole "we'll just go ahead and change the policy without telling you" crap. That's complete bullshit, and a federal court agrees with me.
I'm not sure where you're getting this. I'm no lawyer, but it looked like the court briefing that was linked to before says that companies are required to notify their members of changes to policy documents. For this case, we're going beyond this and not only notifying people of the changes, but preventing them from being automatically bound by the terms unless they agree (by deactivating accounts that don't agree soon enough, and/or offering full discounts to anyone who does not like it). In the future (since it's quite likely that we'll eventually change one or more of these documents again), we'll still be sending out notifications, just like our Subscriber Agreement requires us to do.

As for the number of people agreeing or not agreeing to the policy, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of "agree". I don't keep track of people who click the "ask me later" button, but I'd like to hold onto my hope that most people just didn't see the email we sent out, and are happily just watching TV (or whatever) and not logging into their accounts to notice the request to approve the new policy.

Dachannien
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Re: Privacy policy?

Post by Dachannien »

Being the one who started this thread, I guess I feel compelled to say something. Anyway, the privacy policy isn't the best case scenario. However, the biggest thing lacking is some sort of assurance from TMS that they won't use or sell our PII for unwanted marketing. I'd also be happier if our payment method was guaranteed not to be kept or shared. Still, it could be worse. I can always provide some fake and some real info, I suppose, if I'm truly concerned about it.

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